The Uncommon Leader Podcast

Episode 203: Why Your Leadership Pipeline is Actually a Placement Problem by Mac Lake

• John Gallagher • Episode 203

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What if your calling stayed the same, but your assignment changed? That’s the pivot Mac Lake made—moving from pastoring and church planting to building leadership pipelines for churches and, later, for businesses hungry to grow healthy leaders. We sat down to unpack the turning points, the practical frameworks, and the simple habits that turn lofty leadership talk into measurable impact.

Mac shares the “intervention” that ignited his growth, why investing in yourself isn’t optional, and how a clear leadership pipeline can stop bottlenecks before they burn out your best people. We walk through the five-tier pathway—from leading yourself to leading the organization—so you can spot gaps, set ratios, and prepare your next layer of leaders on purpose. You’ll hear how development beats placement every time, and why the triad of knowledge, experience, and coaching is the simplest engine for transformation you can run across any team.

• origins of purpose and early leadership wake-up call
• moving from church staff to founding Multiply Group
• treating business as a platform for discipleship and influence
• investing in yourself with intentional growth plans
• designing a leadership pipeline with healthy ratios
• shifting from leader placement to leader development
• triad of knowledge, experience, and coaching
• pairing character with competency for trusted impact
• daily health practices that fuel longevity and focus
• how we develop our own team through monthly huddles

We also dig into the balance of character and competency, anchored in David’s model of a pure heart and skillful hands. Mac explains how pairing virtues with skills—patience with conflict, humility with decision-making, courage with change—“supercharges” leadership people trust. And because energy is a competitive edge, we zoom in on health span: eat, sleep, move, think, hydrate. From ditching processed foods and seed oils to resistance training and hydration, Mac shows how daily habits protect focus, raise resilience, and help you finish strong.

If you lead a business, a nonprofit, or a church, you’ll leave with a blueprint to restructure your team, a repeatable way to develop leaders, and a personal plan to sustain the energy leadership demands. Subscribe for more conversations with uncommon leaders, share this with someone who needs the nudge, and leave a review to help others find the show.


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➡️ 𝐋𝐢𝐧𝐤𝐞𝐝𝐈𝐧 (primary): https://www.linkedin.com/in/maclake/
➡️ 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐓𝐮𝐛𝐞: https://www.youtube.com/maclake
➡️ 𝐖𝐞𝐛𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐞:  https://www.multiplygroup.org/
➡️ 𝐛𝐨𝐨𝐤:  https://multiply-group.myshopify.com/

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SPEAKER_00:

God, how do you want to use me as a leader to influence the circle around me? Mac, you know you're not going to be a pastor again. And out loud, I said, then what am I? And he whispered in my soul and he said, I'm not changing your calling, I'm changing your assignment, and you are a kingdom entrepreneur who is going to help other kingdom entrepreneurs develop healthy leaders in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey Uncommon Leaders, welcome back. This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I'm your host, John Gallagher. If you can tell by the smile on my face, you can tell that I'm really excited about this guest that we're going to have with you today. It's Mac Lake, the founder of the Multiply Group. It's an organization dedicated to helping leaders and churches ultimately build healthy leadership pipelines. We're going to talk about that. But he also, we have so many different connections we're going to get a chance to talk about. He planted Carolina Forest Community Church back in 1997. And I talked to folks a lot of times about how they moved from business leadership into full-time church ministry. I'm going to ask Mac about how he went the other direction and how that really worked for him. We're WU Mountaineer fans. So that makes it easy to talk about, which means we also don't like Pitt. We'll talk about that here in a story as well. And he's the author of the Discipling Leadership Series. And here's one of those books right here four-part series leading yourself, leading others, leading organization, leading teams, leading leaders. A phenomenal leadership series that he put together a while back. And he's got some other things going on. So we're going to dive deep into ultimately how health impacts you, Mac, uh, and your leadership, how your faith impacts you and your leadership. And certainly maybe even talk about your uh son, worship artist Brandon Lake, and how he impacts uh you in your life as well. So, Mac Lake, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Great to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm doing great, John. It's an honor to be with you. And uh it was so funny. I think we talked 20 minutes prior to really starting because we had so much in common and we found out we know so many of the same people. And so what a treat this is.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm excited. And I often, in fact, I get in trouble with my editor. They're like, why don't you hit record to pick up that stuff before? Han, that's some of the best stuff before we hit that, some of the laughing that goes on. But I think we'll get back to many of those things so that the folks that are listening uh can ultimately enjoy it as much as I did. But I'll start you off, Mac, with the same question. I always start my first-time guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast over 200 episodes in. And that's to answer the question for me is there a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are today as a person or as a leader?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Uh it's a story that uh illustrates the spiritual leadership of my father, but also a story that shows the deep impact that he had on my life at a young age. Uh, I remember when I was 12 years old, I was an extremely shy kid. And I like to read, and so I would read a lot. And uh my dad would come into my bedroom and on my nightstand, he would put these little pamphlets on my nightstand. He never really said anything. He never said, Hey, I want you to read these, but he'd say, Hey, I got this buddy, thought you might enjoy it. He lay it on my nightstand. And it was perforated little pamphlets, so you take them apart, and there would be three of them, and they were Norman Vincent Peel sermons that were in little printed booklet form. And they had incredible titles, you know, uh, how to have a stronger faith, how to make friends, uh, just all kinds of very practical things. And most of those sermons were built around one gospel story or one or two verses in scripture. Uh, and they were extremely practical. And so I would pick those things up and I would start reading them, and then I'd get a highlighter and I'd start highlighting them at 13 years old. Wow, and it got God's word into my soul, into my mind, into my heart. And then also, you know, uh Dr. Peel, the power of positive thinking, you know, uh faith began to influence the way I thought and about myself because I was so shy, had you know, terrible self-image because I was so shy. And it really began God used that early on to give me a hunger for his word and to reshape my thinking, and uh became a reader ever since. And uh but it just my dad's impact on my life by feeding me things that grew my soul was just significant in my life.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. I love the memories that ultimately drive that. I mean, there are probably little messages, you may still even have some of those that you go back to on a regular basis and say, here's how it's going with me. Mac, you know, most of the listeners of the Uncommon Leader Podcast, they're business leaders that really come in. They are folks uh who might have uh faith as part of their journey as well, but it's not always there. And many times I'll talk with leaders, whether I'm coaching them or whether I'm uh just conversing with them on a general basis in an environment where there are leaders, and they talk about the desire to move from their business ministry or business work into full-time ministry inside of the church. They just feel calling to do that. You actually went the other way with that. You started off in church ministry and ultimately ended up starting your own business. Tell me a little bit, as much as you want to, and go back as far as you can about that journey and how you got to that point where you started your own business.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I felt called to ministry at a very young age and uh went to Moody Bible Institute when I was 20, went to Dallas Theological Seminary in my mid-20s, uh, got into youth ministry and then uh associate pastor, then planted a church. And so, you know, I thought I'm gonna be in the church my whole life on staff. And I loved it. I mean, absolutely loved it. And uh seven years ago, I was heading up a church plant organization and helping with church planting, and then all of a sudden, all three of my kids moved back to Charleston, South Carolina, and that meant I had at that point three grandkids here, and so I looked at my wife and I said, Hey, what would you think if I quit my job, started a company? Because I've always wondered, I've had this itch to start a business for years. And uh, what if I what if we move there and I start a company doing leadership development? And let's go back and let's be grandparents. And I didn't have to twist her arm hard at all. So we moved to Charleston. I started Multiply Group, which uh is a business that serves churches with uh leadership development. But then, John, uh about two years ago, uh my board began to say, Mac, you need to take these principles that you're writing about and you're teaching, you need to take them in the business world. And I went, no. And then uh some men that I was discipling began to tell me the same thing. And then uh what's funny is what convinced me is I got a message, a LinkedIn message from a guy didn't know who he was, said, I need to meet with you. So I met with him on Zoom and he said he told me a story. He said, I applied for a job, I clicked on uh indeed, I clicked on the link, and it took me to your website. And so it was clear it was the wrong website. They linked it to the wrong website, but I saw your name on there and I recognized your name. So he said, I ran to my bookshelf and I pulled off one of your books. I mean, I've read his book, and God told me to call you and tell you you're supposed to be working with businesses. Oh gosh, and I'm weeping on that call, and I'm like, Okay, I'm convinced now. Took a stranger, but the next day I had coffee with a Chick-fil-A uh operator owner who I'd never met, had read my books, sat down with me for coffee, eight o'clock next morning. He said, Have you ever thought about working with businesses? I was like, I gotta tell you what happened yesterday. And so since then, I have my coaches that are running multiples and delivering the leadership pipeline to churches. And I shifted about a year ago, and I'm beginning to work with coach and consult businesses and do things with entrepreneurs and things like that. So and John, part of the story is I was on a prayer walk about a year ago, and God whispered in my soul and said, Mac, you know you're not going to be a pastor again. And out loud, I said, Then what am I? And he whispered in my soul and he said, I'm not changing your calling, I'm changing your assignment, and you are a kingdom entrepreneur who is going to help other kingdom entrepreneurs develop healthy leaders in the workplace. Because if we're going to advance the gospel, church is the primary way. Well, believers are the primary way to advance the gospel. And then uh churches help disciple them. But boy, if business leaders can come alongside and go, you know what? I want to treat my business, is also my church, you know, it's a platform I can disciple people, it's a platform I can reach people. Now I want them in the church, but I want to use my business as a platform to influence for the kingdom. And uh, as believers, I believe we're too as as leaders and believers, I believe we're too hesitant and we pull back and we we rely too much on the church institution to evangelize, disciple, influence people for the kingdom. And we got to take personal ownership and go, God, how do you want to use me as a leader to influence the circle around me?

SPEAKER_01:

Amen, Mac. Folks, uh regardless of your faith. And again, I'm not pushing anything from that standpoint. I would go back and listen to that again. Mac, one of the things that I've been uh let's see, studying on, reflecting on myself, you touch on this, the church itself, you might get Sunday morning for an hour, an hour and a half inside of church. Maybe Sunday evening you go for a Bible study, Wednesday midweek for a church dinner. I'm just talking about traditional things. You get three or four hours with church. As a business leader, you got captivated for 40 hours. And when we can recognize, and that's just that's probably light because we know that most business leaders, most kingdom uh leaders who are looking to be more successful, uh ultimately are working more than that anyway. And the math just works. And the fact is, as we were called as individuals, as followers of God, to make disciples in in all of our work. So I love that from the standpoint of understanding. And I know I was thought you know, one of the answers you might say is that you were just following the same path that John Maxwell did when he went from church ministry to full-time business ministry back in the 1990s. And I know he's been an influence, so much so that he wrote the forward to your book, uh, the leading yourself uh book inside of your series. One of my favorite things to do when I read a book actually is to go to the forward and the introduction and then go to the end and read the acknowledgments. I think that's where some of the pureness comes out in the stories. And John wrote the forward to your book. And I just want to point a couple of sentences that weren't really because of him, were part of your development and how you got into leadership development, why it became important to you. But you said, I was early in your career and you were just beginning in ministry uh with a modest income. Imagine that. Something happened that shook you. A group of colleagues came into your office, Mac, sat you down and told you bluntly, you're a nice guy, but you're not a leader. Tell me about that story and what what did you learn from that? And what did you do when you heard that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I call that um, I call that my intervention. Uh, you know, that they loved me enough to come into my office and say, You are a nice guy. You love Jesus, you walk with Jesus, you're a man of character. But as a leader, you're not leading your team, you're not leading what you're doing. You are doing everything and you're not empowering those around you. And that was a wake-up call. And I'm so thankful for that intervention. And that's when I was like, okay, I've got to grow as a leader. And took a little bit of time, but eventually I found uh a John Maxwell conference. I didn't know who John Maxwell was at that point. And so I went to this conference and I sit there day one, and my hand hurt at the end of the day because I took so many notes. I was learning things about leadership I'd never learned before. And he uh pitched this product he had. It was 100 uh leadership tapes, 12 of his favorite leadership books, and a leadership journal. And he said, I guarantee you, if you buy this and you use it as a personal growth plan, then it will change the trajectory of your leadership. And I'm drooling, but I was making$18,000 a year, married, had a baby. I was like, there's no way. And so I go back to the hotel that evening and Cindy asked me about the conference, and I told her all about it. And I mentioned the personal growth kit. She said, Did you buy it? And I said, Honey, I can't buy that. We don't have$500. There's no way. And my wife, who was probably 24 at the time, she looked at me, she said, Mac, how in the world do you ever expect to grow other people if you refuse to invest in yourself? Go back tomorrow and buy the kit. God will make a way. And I bought the kit and John, I listened to all 100 tapes, probably in 60 days, read all 12 books in 60 days, and my leadership just changed. It was visible. The people around me, it was visible to the people around me. And I just started growing so quickly because for the first time in my life, I got intentional about my own leadership development.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that is so cool. And I hope there's not another connection here. Were you in Dallas at the time?

SPEAKER_00:

Not at that time.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so the first conference I attended was Leadership 99, which was John Maxwell, and it was in Dallas. It was at a church in Dallas. I'm like, if we were standing there at that point in time, same time, I'm really gonna be worried. That's right. You were in 99, you were in Myrtle Beach, so or in the Myrtle Beach area. Again, I love the link of our stories. My introduction to leadership was a mentor giving me the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership in 1998. He read that book with me chapter by chapter, and I was hooked. I didn't know how to spell leadership before that, but I was hooked and understood uh what leadership development was and became very passionate about that. So I appreciate you sharing that. And you know, you touched on it by your wife too, and a similar experience. But our wives uh supporting us on these journeys, uh being there beside us and participating in those leadership development journeys are so critical. You mentioned the hunter tapes. I don't know if it was the Enjoy Club with the purple binder or the Maxim Club Club with the eventually turned to CDs, but that's what it was for me as well. So those things were awesome. I look forward to those things coming in every month, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, it's funny. I was having lunch with John, this is a couple years ago, and I had just finished writing leading yourself. And I told him, I said, I told him that story and the impact it made on my life. And I said, in fact, I said, uh, I've written a book series, discipling leaders book series. Lead yourself, lead others, lead leaders, lead department, lead the organization. I explained it to him and I said, and uh each book I've dedicated to somebody, and I said, lead yourself, actually dedicated to you. And that book had not yet come out yet. That week we were sending it to the printer to get published and all that. And if you notice, none of the books have a forward and none of the books. No, no endorsement. No, because I just don't do that. I just I've never asked. I was like, hey, if the book's any good, it'll stand on its own. And so I told him the story, and I said, uh, and before I told him the story, I said, John, he said, uh he had asked me a question. I said, you know what? Instead, I answering that question, can I tell you something? I want to symbolically wash your feet right now. And he went, Yeah. And so I told him the story about that conference so many years ago and the impact it made on my life. And I said, And John, as a result, I've written this entire leadership series and I'm dedicating the last book to you. And he said, I want to write the forward. And I said, No, no, no, I'm not I'm not asking you to do that. He said, No, send me the book. I want to read it. If I like it, I I want to write the forward. And so I called my team that afternoon. I said, Hold the press, you know, and uh sent it to him. He got a forward back to us within a week, and uh, that's how that book ended up uh being forwarded by John. I didn't ask him, he asked if he could do it, and just he's such a gracious, generous, uh, incredible man.

SPEAKER_01:

That's got a thing too, no doubt about it, in terms of timing, all those things to go forward. I think that is such a cool story. I am curious, not about the John Maxwell part of that story. Uh Leading Yourself was the last book in the series. Now, I would again, not that what I'm saying it's not about a right or wrong. Was there a reason it ended coming out last?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I wasn't gonna write that book. Uh, and so in the introduction of all the other books, it says uh this series starts with leading others. I am not going to write leading yourself. I said, There's too many good books out there about leading yourself, so I'm not gonna cover that. I feel like the bigger need is these, you know, covering the leadership competencies at the various other levels. And uh two years ago, I get a call from one of the churches that uses the material, and uh the pastor said, When's leading yourself coming out? I said, Well, it's not. And I explained to him, and he said, No, no, no, we we need that book. I said, No, no, you don't. He said, Yeah, I do. I said, Well, what are you looking for? We need something on emotional intelligence, we need something that teaches people to be team players, we need something that teaches them how to have influence, we need something that teaches them how to live on mission. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. Okay, I'll write the book. And so I wrote that book and I sent him as soon as it was public, I sent him 30 copies. I said, Thank you so much. And uh that book has just taken off. And and so we've been very, very pleased.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, John would tell us, you know, we got to do that first, right? In terms of developing ourselves first, you know, we don't want to be the lid on the organization uh that we work with, whether it's in a church or whether it's in a business.

SPEAKER_00:

So the interesting thing about the book that I, as I sit down to write it and begin to put the chapters together, oh my goodness, this serves a bigger purpose than I thought. So chapter one is you how to write your life mission statement, living on mission. So you start by learning uh you do it as a group. I recommend a triad and you write your life mission statement. Then you go through the other chapters. Chapter six is on how to develop influence. And so if you take a group of non-leaders through this book, you're wetting their appetite for leadership. So once you taught them their life mission, teach them how to have influence, then the next question is is anybody ready among this group, anybody ready to learn to be a leader? Because I'd love to take you through leading others next. And now we're gonna learn the skills of actually how to lead other people. And so the book ended up being more strategic than I thought.

SPEAKER_01:

When I think about that, it actually is something that's facing again, I think it faces churches today and businesses, especially, you know, you planted churches before, uh started off, grew them into something large. And some leaders they'll try to scale before they're ready, before they multiply other leaders, uh, resulting in burnout for the specific leader because they end up doing everything. When you're going in consulting now, whether it's with businesses or with churches, how do you help leaders you know identify if they're ready to grow or to scale and get started on that journey and developing other leaders?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So what we do is when we go in and we begin to work with a church or a company, we say, Hey, we need to look at your structure because most people have a vision to grow and scale what they're doing. And so uh the first thing we do is we say, we need to analyze your structure. So show us the current reality of your structure and we get their team involved in this. So the team begins to look at it, and then uh we show them a couple of things in our process, and then we have them begin to diagnose their own structure. Well, one of the things in the structure is uh it shows how many uh they show us how many people report to them. So, like I was working with a business, uh financial consulting business this year, and I was working him through this process. I said, Okay, how many people are in your company? How many people work for you? He said, 15. I said, Okay, now show me the reporting structure. He went, Oh, that's easy. They all report to me. I said, Okay, what problems does that cause? Well, I feel like I'm always failing them. Uh, can't get communication to each of them fast enough. Uh, there's no leaders being developed. I'm the bottleneck to everything. I mean, we made a long list of the problems. I do the same thing with churches. We'll look at the organizational structure of children, students, groups, worship, guest services, missions, and then, for example, children's ministry, we'll have them do their structure. Okay, how many people are reporting to you? Very often the number is 50, 60, 70 volunteers reporting to the director. That's not sustainable. And so once we walk Through that process, then we say, Let me teach you the leadership pipeline. Every organization should be structured around a leadership pathway or leadership pipeline. You, the majority of your people are down here, they start with leading yourself. It's from that group of people you move some of those, not all of them, to lead others. They become your team leaders, your group leaders. From that group, you move some of those to leading leaders. Now you got some leaders that oversee your leaders. From that, you can move some people up to lead a department of your organization. And from there, they can flow up to lead the organization. So most organizations are going to be four to five level leadership pipeline. And once you put that structure together, you can put healthy ratios around that. And when you put the healthy ratios, you go, oh, okay, we need more leaders at various levels. The last thing you want to do is place them. You want to develop. And this is one of the major, major problems we have today is organizations, churches, they look around and go, Oh, we need more leaders. Oh, he's not ready. He's not ready. He's not ready. Oh, he's ready. And we put them in that position, and we're doing leadership placement, not leadership development. As a result, they struggle, they serve for a while, and then they go, you know what? I feel like I'm failing. They don't tell you that, but they feel like a failure, so they quit and they do something else. And it was a lack of training and a lack of confidence, is what caused them to step away from the leadership role. And so many people step away from that role, having a lot of potential as a leader, but they step away from the role because their confidence was destroyed. And they go, I must not be a leader. And they give up.

SPEAKER_01:

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SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it it's how transformation takes place. I call it the triad of development, is what I call that. And a lot of times we don't think about how transformation actually happens in somebody. So what we do is we, if we do development, we go, okay, uh, I'm hiring John. Uh John, I need you to know how to lead a meeting. Okay. So, John, I'm going to tell you here's how you lead a meeting. I'm done. I just trained you. Well, no, you didn't. Oh, you gave him the knowledge. Okay. So, what I want to do is say, hey, John, I want you to read this chapter on how to lead a meeting. I think it's actually chapter uh four of I think it's chapter four, lead a department. Uh, I want you to read this chapter on how to lead a meeting. Okay. Now you're going to watch me read that chapter, then you're going to watch me lead a meeting, okay? And we're going to debrief it. We're going to talk about it. And then uh let's let you help me plan the next meeting. And I'm going to let you lead part of that meeting. And then eventually in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to let you lead the whole meeting while I watch and I'm going to give you feedback. Okay. And so you read the chapter, that's the knowledge. I'm giving you experience by saying, hey, watch me. Now you try, try, try, try, try this, try that. Okay. And each time we get together and we talk about it. And so that knowledge, experience, and coaching, there's another way I like to put it too, is I want you to think about this competency. I want you to try the competency and let's get together and talk about it. And when you do that, now all of a sudden, transformation begins to happen because I can sit down and go, hey, John, you did a great job leading that section of the meeting. What do you feel like you did well? What would you do different if you had the opportunity to do it again? Okay, yeah, I agree on that. Here's something else I would recommend. And I can coach you and speak around that. Uh, but we just don't do that. We say, hey, John, here's what you need to do. Go do it. I'm done.

SPEAKER_01:

And what a great process. Here's the book, here's the manual, just go make it happen, right? Because you don't have time to develop them. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, and you think about that. Look, you're in a group now, you've got uh organization that is serving both churches and businesses now. You're building a team in your own business. So let's take some of your own medicine. What are one or two habits or disciplines you specifically develop for your own success and growth as a leader? For my team? For you that you do for your team or for yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh personal growth planning. Uh so uh I always have a personal growth plan that I'm working on. And I always challenge my team once a quarter. Hey, I want you to have a personal growth plan. Uh I actually have a book called uh Growth Plan Workbook. It's got 32 growth plans in it. And what it is, it's laid out in such a way that it uh guides you through the process of building your own growth plan. But it has recommendations of how to do that. There's an assessment around all 32 of them. And so I built that for organizations to use for ongoing mentoring of their employees. And it's uh road plan workbook, they're on Amazon or on our website.

SPEAKER_01:

Just wrote that down. I'm gonna go look that up. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it's it's fun, it's a phenomenal tool. And uh, so that's one thing. And then we do monthly huddles, and so that's part of my leadership development philosophy. I teach uh to other organizations. So uh once a month I will do a uh it's our regular meeting. We have a regular meeting every single Monday, but once a month, part of the agenda is coaching, and so I'll say, okay, hey guys, uh I sent you this four-minute video, six-minute video uh for us. So on my lead team, I got a couple of people there that I'm saying, okay, I want you to learn to run a business. And so what I mostly do my coaching huddles around with them, I'll send them an Alex Hermozzi video, uh, Gary V video, Don Miller video, something like that. And I actually took them through a business made simple last year because uh I tell my team, there are three of us on the lead team. I say, Hey, I hug you tightly. I love you, I love you, I never want to lose you. All right, I hug you tightly, but I hold you loosely. I never want to stand in way of God's calling. I don't know how in the world I would do what I do without you, but you're God's, you're not mine. And so I want to develop you in ways that if you left me, you would be successful. Or if something happens to me, either one of you could step in and run the organization because you're watching me do it. And I'm teaching you things around how to lead this organization. And I involve you in key decisions in leading this organization. I tell them, I'm a collaborative leader, I'm the quarterback, I will make the final call if we can't get a collaborative decision. But I really want their wisdom. I need their wisdom, I need their input, and I need them to wrestle with some of the hard decisions that I'm wrestling with because if they step into a leadership position, they don't need that. It's scary if it's like I've never had to make a hard decision, I've never had to process hard things. So it gives them swings at the plate in a very safe environment.

SPEAKER_01:

Love that. Swings at the plate, taking reps, whatever it is that we need to do. Mac, I love the concept of the series and how you brought these books out. When you think about an organization or an individual who goes through this series, this is more like the book test I would use. And they put it up on a bookshelf, you know, they say it reminds you, uh it reminds them of some conversation they've had with you or something they've read. Ultimately, when they see that book up on the shelf after they read it, what do you want them to think? And what do you want them to do with regards to when they see that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the thing I want them to think, and this is some of the biggest feedback we get, is I want them to look at the book, whichever book they went through, and go, that was not theory. That was actionable leadership practices that I started applying and transformed my leadership. I am a different type of leader. I am a healthier leader because I went through these specific competencies in this book. I practiced them. I had somebody mentoring me, coaching me around these things, and it transformed my leadership so that my leadership behaviors are now different and my leadership character is now different. One of my life verses is Psalm 7872, and it's really foundational to this whole entire series. Psalm 7872 says that David shepherded, David's one of the best leaders Israel ever had. All right. David shepherded them with a pure heart and he guided them with skillful hands. And what this tells us is David was a man, was a leader who had leadership spirit and he had leadership skill. And you have to have both. That's why every chapter of that book, you learn a character trait and a corresponding competency. And the way I put it is I can teach you the competency like how to navigate conflict, which is in leading leaders, okay? How to navigate conflict. But if you don't have the character trait of patience, you're still going to blow up conflict. And so I want to pour, I call it supercharges your competency. I want to pour the character trait of patience on top of your competency of navigating conflict, and it supercharges that. And so uh the book series is matched with character and competency because David was a man who had such great character. People said, Man, I'll follow this guy anywhere because I trust him. He's a man of integrity. But if he didn't have leadership skill, people would go, I followed him for a while, but he's not taking us anywhere. But he also had leadership skill. And so that's why people loved him and followed him. But if he didn't have leadership character, people would go, I followed him for a while, but he knows where he's going. But boy, he's treating me like a cog in his machine. He doesn't have the that's why the two have to come together, and that's why this series develops your character and your competency so that business owners, nonprofits, churches can use this series to grow their people in character and specific competencies.

SPEAKER_01:

So good because you know you think about that as a picture as you draw that. And I love you know the metaphor you talk about a pouring over top of that skill. Because I think many times there are leaders who have the character, they exhibit the behaviors they're looking for, they just don't quite have the skill. And you can teach that to your point through knowledge, through coaching, uh, through experiences. Sometimes they've got the skill, but the character is lacking. A little bit tougher to bring that in and teach that. Uh, but it's certainly, and again, even when you bring that back to scriptures about how do we share with them with truth and grace, you know, that that behavior, that character flaw needs to become better. Even David, we know, as you say, is a great leader. He had character flaws. There's no doubt about it. You read through the Bible, he had character flaws. And there is no leader that is perfect. There was only one who was perfect. And you talk about that as a pastor and as a leader as well. And that was Jesus.

SPEAKER_00:

That's what I love, that's what I love about David, and you make such a great point. We're not talking about perfection, we're talking about character and trust. So, yes, he messed up, he wasn't perfect, but his people trusted him because of the character of his heart. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I'm gonna shift gears just a little bit. Leaders, we know that uh for us to be successful, we also have to be around. We have to be there for our people. Uh, it was a series that you did recently with Justin Rothling Schaufer on health and how that affects your leadership. So maybe a two-part question here. Uh, to the leader who says they don't have time to work on their health because they're so busy with the business or so busy leading in the church and those types of things, you know, what is the advice that you give them? But secondly, what are the things that you do uh to stay in shape as well, physically, um, nutritionally, emotionally, that that folks need to learn, could learn from?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. The backstory on my health and the reason it's included in this chapter is I'm very passionate about it. When I was 40 years old, I was pastoring in Myrtle Beach, and uh I was at this point, you know, church planting, high stress job, you know. I had three young kids, and uh, you're planting something brand new. You don't know if it's gonna make it or not, you know. And so I was working a lot and I just felt lousy. I was gaining weight, I felt lousy. I'd come home from, you know, long day of work, lay on the couch, all I want to do is take a nap. Kids want to play. I'd say, okay, let's play hide and seek. Dad's gonna go hide. Y'all three have to come find me, and I'd hide really good where they couldn't find me and I'd get a nap in. And finally, I was like, something has to change. And so I said, I've got I told Cindy I have to change my lifestyle because I'm 40 years old and I have no energy. I'm just spent. And so, and I'm seeing this in 20 year olds nowadays, you know. Uh, and so I went on this health journey, started studying health, and I told Cindy, I said, I'm going to preach a sermon series on health one year from now. That means I've got to live it for one year. And I did, and I lost weight, I gained energy, I radical transformation in who I was, and it's been a discipline ever since. And uh it breaks my heart, but it's become a passion because leaders are leaving so much on the table, not just near the end of their life, but each day, because they don't have the energy to finish the day well, regardless, finish the life well, you know. And one of my my biblical heroes is Moses says Moses was 120 years old when he died, his eyes were not weak, and his strength was not gone. So Moses, God retired Moses at 120, not because he had high blood pressure and Alzheimer's and heart disease. He retired him with full vitality. Book of Acts, chapter four, says David fulfilled God's purpose for his life and he died. So I'm like, God, I want to live, I want to live with full vitality and energy, and I want to bring full energy and bring my fullness of myself for your sake, for your purpose every single day and my whole life. So my mom is 92. Now she's in old folks' home, and mom has Alzheimer's. I can go visit her today. She'll have no clue who I am, she'll have no clue that I was there. Okay. Mom's lifespan has gone to 92, but her health span ended at 82.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And paying attention to this, reducing, I'll tell you my process here in a minute. It can extend your your health span.

SPEAKER_01:

Love that word. Health span. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

God's in charge of our lifespan, but we have a lot to say so in our health span. So I want to guard my health span. So what I do, uh the book shares five things eat, sleep, move, think, and uh hydrate. And so those are the five things I pay attention to. And so for me, no processed foods. I mean, sugar, processed foods, uh, vegetable oils, uh, seed oils are just massively destructive to your heart health and your brain health. So many people going around with brain fog and they don't understand why. And they go to a doctor, I don't know what it is. You must have fibromyalgia. Well, let's look at the American diet, okay? Hydrate. So many people walking around dehydrated. So going back to eat, I would say if God made it, eat it, okay? Hydrate, you know, drink half your body weight in in ounces of water every day. If I'm 200 pounds, I need to drink 100 ounces, but also get some electrolytes uh in your system. Uh move. I aim at 10,000 steps a day. I aim at I I get in the gym four times a week for resistance training. And then uh the other days I'll play basketball, things like that, just to get my heart rate up. And uh so you know, those are just some of the practices that uh now, you know, at 64 years old, stretching, flexibility, and mobility. There you go. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Uh so I've been working on that the past 30 days. And I told my wife this morning, I said, watch this. And I bent over and had palms to the to the floor first thing in the morning. And uh I was like, wow, I haven't done that in a long time. So uh I neglected that all these years, and so I'm paying attention to that now. But uh just if you integrate 20 minutes, 30 minutes a day, the compound effect is going to be massive to your time and productivity if you do this. So good.

SPEAKER_01:

So good. And I again, a word you used as well as it becomes a lifestyle, and I love the difference in health span and lifespan. I want you know, close the gap on those two things so that they match as much as we can. I mean, I'll written down, you're talking about the why and why it's important. It was I was at 47 when I had the realization that I needed to improve health, had a health scare that came along and then changed my life for the last uh 10 years anyway, uh, and staying disciplined with it. But you know, I don't do it so that uh I can wear certain size jeans or whatever that is, which is really cool. Um, but really it's for me, it's being able to dance, and I don't even know how to dance very well, so it'd be kind of funny, but at my grandchildren's weddings. And uh I don't have any grandchildren yet, so that's gonna be a few years before that actually happens, and so I'd like to continue to take care of myself so that uh I can be there uh for that when that happens. So I appreciate you sharing that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm gonna combine a couple. So we're WVU fans, which means we dislike Pitt. We talked about this a little bit before. Uh, but many folks know your last name as well, Lake. Uh, and if you think about Brandon Lake, this is Brandon Lake's father, listeners as well. So uh, you know, Brandon's got some good genetics here that's coming out, but I don't know if Mack can sing like Brandon can, but certainly he's a great uh artist uh who's at the top of his game right now with regards to music, and Kristen Worship performs in front of tens of thousands of people all the time on a regular basis, and I look forward to the chance I get to see him in person as well in terms of singing. But I'm gonna ask you kind of a hypothetical question, okay? Well, you just finished watching WW football. They beat Pitt on Saturday afternoon, and you're traveling back home from uh, I don't know, Applebee's, where you watch the game on TV and your car radio comes on. What are you gonna put on first? You can put Country Roads on first, or are you gonna put on the Brandon Lake uh playlist in in Spotify?

SPEAKER_00:

Brandon Lake playlist for sure. That's all repeating our house.

SPEAKER_01:

I bet it is. I bet it is. Um, it has to be so much fun to kind of watch some of that success. And I know you know I've seen some of your Instagram work and traveling around with him. That in and of itself uh has got to keep you active and moving uh to support what he's trying to do uh as a part of his growth. Mac, this has been a great conversation. Uh, I've way overused my time with you. Um I want to bring this to a close. Uh, how can folks get more in touch with you, uh, either you know online or wherever that is to learn more about what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh Instagram is MacLake24, M-A-C-L-A-K-E 24, or you can go to MacLakeOnline.com and uh get information there as well. If you're a church or a pastor, go to multiplygroup.org and uh you can get more about our work with churches.

SPEAKER_01:

Excellent. I'll make sure make sure to put some uh the links in the show notes so that folks can get to those easily. I've been out there to see folks who do need to follow up with Mac and see what he's got going on. It's some really cool stuff. Mac again, you've been a great guest for the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I'm gonna give you the last word here. Same question I always finish up with. My first time guests, and uh, I'm gonna give you a billboard. You can put that thing anywhere you want to. Maybe it's right by that bridge in Mount Pleasant because you know people sit there and look at it for a long time anyway in the traffic. Wherever that is, uh what's the message you're gonna put on that billboard for others and why do you put that message there?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think the oh gosh, there's so many, but I think the one I would put up there is God loves you and He has a significant, meaningful purpose for your life. My life verse is Galatians, uh, this is one of my life verses, Galatians 2 20, where Paul says, I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. And because Psalm 139, we know that before we were God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb is a very specific purpose for us. And if we can help people lean into, discover and lean in to God's purpose for their life, and recognize that God wants to live through you and will provide direction for your life, meaning for your life, and uh has a pathway for your life. If you discover that, man, the one life, the one life that we get to live will be meaningful and significant, and uh you won't regret it.

SPEAKER_01:

So good. Mac Lake, thanks again for being such a great guest on the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I wish you the best and let's stay in touch, okay?

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, John.

SPEAKER_01:

I've got Uncommon Leaders. Wasn't that a great conversation with Mac Lake? I enjoyed it tremendously. You know, it's one thing to talk about all the leadership tips of those that are authors and really share those things around. But when you get connections with other folks uh in the personal life as well, through whether it's faith or family or, you know, in their work, in their fitness, all those things that connect together make for such great conversations. And that's why I do the Uncommon Leader podcast. So I can share great stories from great leaders to help you become the uncommon leader you were called to be. So if you enjoyed this conversation, if you got all the way this far, obviously it's had some impact on you. I would encourage you to share it with that person who came to mind when you were listening to these conversations who needs to hear that message. And if you really enjoyed it, I would love it if you would go out and leave us a review online, either on Google or on your favorite podcast listening platform. When we get those reviews in there and they're five star reviews, it helps us get this podcast into the hands of many other leaders who need to hear this message. So thank you so much for being a part of the Uncommon Leader podcast community. Until next time, go and grow champions.

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